I so want to go see this movie when it comes out this weekend… however, I’m sure I don’t know anyone who would go see it with me… and far be it from me to try to talk anyone into going to see it and have them accuse me of being the devil’s advocate.
I will go see it, though… somehow. It looks hilarious, and poignant.
We have a new temp secretary where I work. I’ve only known her for a few weeks now… and worked with her as her supervisor. She’s nice enough… and trying to do a good job. Like so many others where I work, she made it obvious she was a deeply religious Christian. Which is fine with me… Whatever floats your boat… as long as you don’t try sinking mine if it is different than yours, I don’t care.
When we went to lunch, she made a big point of bowing her head and saying a prayer before eating. I patiently waited with my eyes open… but, did not participate. A few times, she started talking about spirits and demons… and faith and God. I politely listened, and then politely kept changing the subject. I saw no reason to delve into my complicated background and (probably offensive to her) beliefs.
She was a little over the top for me… talking about angels and spirits and demons… and visits from past relatives.. and no coincidences. I listened… but, told her I was a rather skeptical on such things but that I was glad she found peace in this. Then, I tried to not go there again… and stick to work with her. Still, I liked her well enough, and we could joke around a bit and work well together for the most part.
Then, one afternoon she flat out asked me out of the blue , “do you go to church on Sundays?”… I truthfully and without any excuses or guilt said, “nope”. Silence on her end and a questioning look seemed to beckon a further explanation from me. I sort of thought I shouldn’t have to explain… but, found myself saying nonchalantly anyway, ”I use to go. I grew up going 3-5 times a week. But, I had enough and some bad experiences with it. So, I no longer go”. And, I left it at that. I went back to work on my PC… and ignored her disapproving, questioning look. She muttered something like, “seems like that happens. I never went to church until I was went on my own when I was in my 20’s and was saved”. I just said, “mmHmmm”, and didn’t really respond. I really was busy anyway…
She’s been there for about 4 weeks now… and, we seem to be getting along just fine. This past week I helped her make the transition into a different temp postion down the hall while her permanent replacement moved in with me. I liked her… but, I like my friend that is taking the job perm with me better.
Anyway, today, she was telling me some of the struggles of her new position… and she was very nice saying that she would rather be working with me… and that she really enjoyed working with me… and that I am a “good spirit”. OOooooo Kay. I’ll take that. So, I said, Thanks. She went on to say that she likes most everyone in our program/area… and that she’s happy to be working around so many Christians like me.
HUH?
Wait. Now… in my head… the brakes were going on… I thought back… now, WHEN did I ever give her the impression that i am a Christian? Because I was polite? Because I was nice? Because I listened to her? I debated on if I should correct her, or let her believe that I was a Christian. But, before I could say anything duty called and we were back to work.
So, now I wonder… do I let her believe what she wants to believe?? Or, do I politely somehow correct her and let her know I’m not really a “believer”?
My gut tells me I should fess up… but, my brain wonders why I should have to fess up to not being something that I NEVER said I WAS????
And why the hell is this even all coming up where I work? I mean really? WTF?
I guess, I’ll have to politely tell her the next time she implies I am “with her”… that I am not really “with her”. It’s sad really, because I bet her whole opinion of me, and maybe even where we work will change if I do. Sort of ridiculous. Plus, I hate to get my “good spirit” comment revoked and get myself on yet another prayer list…. 
*sigh*
~smj
That’s a damn good question, if you ask me. I saw the above pic on a website I recently found called “Losing My Religion“. Lots of good reads there and other stuff… like this quote:
“ [Fundamentalists] never wonder why, if herpes is sent by ‘god’ to scourge “adulterers,” whooping cough and measles weren’t purposely created to lambaste children.”
-Fred Woodworth
My mom prays for everything from world hunger to not hitting any red lights on her way to church. She sends those mile long prayer chain emails… to everyone… about everything… that are literally too painful to read. If I read them all, they’d have to add me on to it, asking folks to pray for my eyesight to focus again.
I am a big believer in the power of positive thinking, and affirmations, the laws of attraction… etc…. but, the power of prayer?? Maybe, it helps if you believe it… sometimes… but, if it does… I have to believe it’s the positive thinking that helped and that any God is personally answering prayers. Because, if it WERE God helping my Mom not hit any red lights on her way to church… ?? well then, I’d have a problem with his doing that, but not helping out the starving kid… ya know?
It also amazes me just how many people routinely say, “I’ll pray for you” or “I’ll keep you in my thoughts and prayers”. I don’t mind when they say it to me… even though I don’t really believe in prayer. I know what they mean. I actually feel like saying the latter one myself half the time, only for lack of a common phrase to replace it that doesn’t include prayer. I try just saying “I’ll keep you in my thoughts”… but, that doesn’t really sound as caring, does it? So, I wind up saying, “If there’s anything I can do to help…”… and mean it… and then, I try not to wait for them to ask for help if I can think of anything to do to help. Ironically, if I DO help, they will most likely thank God for answering their prayers… ?
:/
~smj
My very good Christian friend that I was debating all kinds of things with had the following to say to me at one point in our conversations… She said:
“I think that He (God) totally understands the warped church that you were raised in (good intentions on the part of your Mom I’m sure, but still …), why you think what you think, and no matter what you think about him right now, or where you are with him right now, he loves you. Period. He knows what you’re going to do tomorrow, and even 10 years from now. He’s not frowning down on you because you aren’t reading your Bible every day. Does he miss you? Yes. But is he some unforgiving, mean, judgmental God who only loves you if you do everything “right” (by who’s standards?). No, he loves us “as is”. And forgiveness is what he is all about. How else do you explain Jesus. That is the greatest love story of all time if you ask me.“
I know she means well… and she is trying to make me feel the “love” of God… but, is it just me… or does this really have some contradicting messages in it?
First of all, something that annoys me is that people think I am the way I am because I just wasn’t going to the right church. While, I DO think the churches (plural, because there were in fact several, not one!) WERE warped – I don’t think they are the only ones like that. And, I’m sure many others went to the same churches with different outcomes, or totally different churches with similar outcomes.
I know that wasn’t her point. What I think she was trying to hammer home – was the idea that God loves me… and is not judgmental… etc. I get what she was trying to say… but it still doesn’t cut it for me. I mean, don’t you have to take that part of the message of the bible (the warm fuzzy part), along with the overall message (the warm fuzzy unless you go to hell part)? I’m sorry, it just…. doesn’t…. make…. sense to me.
I mean, IF He loves us “as is”… no matter what… even if we are not “doing everything right” – then, why are there so many rules and guidelines on what we can or can not do? Or on how we should change, or basically live our lives? Why do we need so much forgiveness? And ultimately, if he’s so understanding, accepting, and forgiving, and non-judgmental – then why is there so much condemnation and threats of hell? And, how, can He actually send so many of “his children”, that he loves so and misses so much, to such a place?
Now, I know the old “love the sinner, not the sin” argument… and the parent/child and unconditional love arguments. But, I also know that I would never send my child to Hell. Regardless of whether I WAS right or not… or if they smartened up and listened to me or not?
Is there such a thing as “tough love” – yes. Do we need to let our kids learn the hard way sometimes, or even lay in the bed they made to learn a lesson? Yeah.. I guess… but, that is different than hitting a point where you completely abandon and give up on them – FOREVER. I suppose some parents do that. Does that make it right? Maybe it’s just my warped, agnostic, maternal instincts, but I know that I personally would never completely give up on my kids… let alone condemn them to Hell.
Apparently, however, that IS what she believes. That this all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, loving and forgiving heavenly father of ours will eventually do just that, right? He will send any “non-believers” to Hell, right?
Or, if you want to get into the whole – “He doesn’t SEND us there, we CHOSE it” debate… then, still… no matter how you look at it, he will at the very best basically LET any non-believers go to hell, right? (Because, I also have a hard time believing that IF He’s all that he’s cracked up to be, He couldn’t stop it if He wanted to.) Which will bring up the old “free will” argument, and how he wants us to chose, he can’t make us, etc. Another circular message!
Just because I don’t believe in something that makes no sense to me, does NOT mean I want to burn in hell eternally. It’s ridiculous. And, if he’s so all seeing, all knowing… etc…. you would think he’d know of a way to have handled this whole dilemma better. There’s a good post on Heather’s I wonder as I wander Blog called, “they shall be without excuse” that gets into that whole aspect of this. This is like saying that by not believing in Santa Cluas, you are CHOSING to be banished to the Isle of the Misfit Toys. ?!? I mean, come on… where is the logic in this? I told my Christian friend, “look… for the record… if someday it turns out that you are right… and I am wrong… and you are up in heaven… and you look down and I’m burning in hell.. .I just want it on record that I DO NOT CHOOSE TO BE THERE!”.
But, that is what many good Christians seem to believe. That when we die, if we failed to “see the light”, for whatever reasons, we are just plain screwed, right? So what does that mean exactly? What do people think? That we will face Him at the pearly gates, and what will he say? Something like -
”whelp? you blew it. I gave you lots and lots of chances – and now… I give up and you can rot in eternal hell.. forever and EVER. Maybe next time you’ll listen to me. Wait. Scratch that. There IS no next time. (as if I didn’t know that! alomst gotcha, didn’t I?
?????
Yeah. Ok. Greatest Love Story. ?? Sheesh… I think NOT.
Reminds me of the Carlin Vid I posted before on the “threats of hell” post I made. Check it out for a laugh… (Carlin vid at bottom, not the hell vid at the top).
~smj
I was mulling over my last post…. and, my teenage years in my head.
My teen years marked the beginning of my dual lifestyle…
One one hand… I was starting to doubt and reject a lot of what I was being taught by mom and church in general.. but, I was still going to church 2-5 times a week and singing in the choir, where I’d basically be partaking in a lof of this:
(“Because He Lives I Can Face Tomorrow” )
Then, on the days I wasn’t playing the part of the good little Christian girl, I was skipping school, jumping out my window, and staying over my heathen friends houses a lot in order to sneak to rock concerts and parties, and banging my head to the likes of this:
(“Running with the Devil” – VanHalen)
Explains a lot, doesn’t it???
=)
~smj
(Do we NEED to believe in God in order to forgive ourselves? I hope not… but, maybe we do? Or at least, maybe MANY of us do???)
So, I mentioned that I had been going back and forth with a friend about religion, etc…
One of the many links/articles she sent me was a link to this article called “The Adulteress: A Stone’s Throw from Grace” (found here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2007/julaug/4.58.html?start=2)
Now, she sent this, because she was trying to explain how she is NOT judging gay people, or ANYONE… and, how GOD doesn’t want to condemn people to hell… how Jesus Saves, etc. As in the story, Jesus didn’t condemn the adulteress but says the old “let he who has not sin cast the first stone”. Now… of course I’ve heard this story, and this message a million times. Well, I finally read the article she sent me anyway… and, one part, towards the end, struck me. I felt a light bulb “ah-HA moment”.
It was this part:
“We hear you, Lord. What a relief to know that because of your grace, we can leave behind the past, as this woman did, and walk in a whole new direction.”
Now, like I said, this message is nothing new. What clicked was how it pertained to my friend. You see, my friend is constantly saying of herself, “who am *I* to judge after everything *I* went through, and my own past”… etc., etc. She is quick to admit she’s made her mistakes… and then quick to explain how much better she knows now.
This is probably all true. That’s not what made me go “ah-HA!”.
What suddenly became really clear to me, is that my friend feels awful guilty about some of her past mistakes. As I’m sure many of us do. However, I think, she was really, reeeeally beating herself up over things – for years. I think she got herself into a vicious circle because of that… and I don’t think I even realized just how bad she was hurting. She doesn’t want to “be” that person that made those mistakes. She didn’t want to accept that was “her”. But, I think, no matter how she tried, she couldn’t shake it. She couldn’t accept that the “good person” she wanted to be, would make the “bad” mistakes she had made.
I think, finding “God”, and believing that he could love her… in spite of her sins… allowed her to love herself again. Gave her back her respect…. allowed her to let herself start over. Just like the adulteress in that story. After all, if GOD could forgive her and love her… of course she should too, right?
I don’t know why this is all so interesting to me all of a sudden. I’ve heard countless stories from folks with very checkered pasts, who become born again. It actually was a pet peeve of mine when I was a teen. Heck, my teen leader was one of them (and he was pretty creepy). I didn’t think I should listen to him when a month ago he was a big drug addict and loser, just because now he’d “found God”.
I’ve also often thought that maybe religion helped people cope… period. With whatever. And, maybe they needed it, for whatever reasons. In my mom’s case, because of her illness and to deal with how she grew up. Or to deal with loss… grief. I’ve even envied others at times because I couldn’t seem to get any comfort myself from religion with all my skeptical views. So, the “needing” religion isn’t a new idea to me either.
But, I am getting a different side of this now…
When applying this to my friend’s situation, I’m seeing this in a whole new light.
I’m not even sure it’s the forgiving ourselves aspect that I’m finidng so interesting here. Surely, this is not a new concept either? But, I’m not sure that I had thought that this might apply to my friend. But, I think that’s exactly it. Maybe she needs religion in order to live with herself? Maybe, it really did “save her” from her own guilt. I don’t think she could accept the mistakes she had made. When, in my opinion, they were not even all that bad. She was young and naive and HUMAN. It’s not like she belongs in prison or anything. Yet, I think, she was creating her own prison. She had herself trapped. She needed God, or the idea of God, to forgive her and give her the strength to set her free.
Is it so bad to admit that we are just human? Can we not admit when we make a mistake… and say, “yeah, I fucked up. Bad!”, and try to learn from it? Try to understand how it happened? Try not to let it happen again? and, try to move on? Of course we all make mistakes. Do we need to have a God to forgive us and love us, in order to love ourselves?? Maybe some of us do? Maybe all of us do?
Which leads me to my bigger light-bulb feeling.
Do I need this???
Is that part of my problem?
That I can’t forgive myself for whatever terrible things I’ve done? Including things that were not even my fault?? And, I don’t have enough faith to believe in a God that can forgive me either?
Would *I*, or any of us, even have felt THAT kind of guilt if we didn’t have relgion and God shoved down our throats in the first place???
I don’t know…
Talk about vicious circles…
This is not really coming out right and I’m having trouble explaining my “ah-HA moment”. Sorry if I’m rambling incoherently.
I am going to have to mull this one over a bit…
~smj
I’ve been on a mission.
I have a reeeeeeally strong desire to now say, “We’re on a mission from God”, but I won’t because it is totally off base here… It’s just that I love that line from one of the all time best comedy movies – the Blues Brothers. (See bottem of my post for details =)
But, no… my mission was definitely not “from God”… and, it was also pretty futile anyway. I found myself in an all out email war with a good friend of mine. A friend I grew up with… and we are still friends… remarkably… because we have almost nothing in common. This has always been true, but has been amplified the last couple years. Ever since she had her first child, and has suddenly become very religious. She claims she was always religious, but I don’t ever remember it being discussed, or her going to church regularly until she got married a few years back. She also use to be Catholic, but has changed to a Presbyterian church. I think that explains a lot right there.
Now, she knows my history… and my feelings about church. We have always been very open with each other, and pride ourselves on the fact that we can agree to disagree… and be friends in spite of our many differences. I try not to get into too deep of religious type debates with friends, because it doesn’t usually end well. But, she and I went out for our birthdays a while back, and at the end of the night ran into a guy that was the son of a co-worker of hers. She acted like she was long lost friends with this kid, and they talked and talked for a while. We walked away with her telling me what a GREAT kid he was… and of some problems he’d had with his family because he told them he THOUGHT he MIGHT be gay. How his mother disowned him… even though he was such a GREAT kid.
I couldn’t help myself… and, I asked her how she really felt about gays… since I knew how religious she was now… and, into bible-studying, etc… and because I knew what church taught ME when I was a kid. I wanted to know how SHE really felt. If they had succeeded in getting to her on this, as she always seems like a very NON-judgemental person that you can’t help but like. I was shocked at her response… even though I expected it. It confirmed my fears. “They” had gotten to her.
We wound up in a big debate that night, that resulted in my getting somewhat pissed-off/frustrated with her… and asking her to please drop if because it was late, and she was pissing me off. We apologized to each other the next day, not wanting to be disrespectful or hurtful to each other. We then agreed to have a “friendly” debate via email about this. Well, that lasted for the last month or so.
Originally, she told me her beliefs were NOT based mostly on her religious beliefs, but that soon proved to be untrue… and our debate topics ran rapid. I told her once that she was changing the topic quicker than I could disagree with her.
We started off debating whether being Gay is a choice or if you are born that way. And, whether one can “change” being gay? I couldn’t believe she insisted that she loved this kid… and had nothing against gay people, but she also insisted that ACTING out on those feelings was a sin… she compared it to a pedophile acting out, or an alcoholic drinking. ?!? Love the sinner, not the sin, type of argument. She insisted that people could choose NOT to be Gay and become “ex-gay”.
This led into many other topics that I’m sure neither of us are qualified to debate about since neither of us ARE gay or really into politics… Things like:
- Gay = Sin?
- Can you really change and be “ex-gay”?
- What’s so wrong about being gay anyway?
- AIDS – is it a “gay” disease?
- Gay Marriage & Gay parents
- James Dobson and Focus on the Family
(She subscribes to his newsletters, and was sending me articles of his to show why she feels the way she does. I, however, think he’s a big jerk.. and a dangerous one at that and sent her back info to back that up.)
- What is “creditable” data?
(She kept using the Bible, and organizations like Exodus, and NARTH – which I rejected. I kept using data and articles from real life gay people telling their stories on line, and articles about how bogus Exodus and NARTH is, and instead quoting things from American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Education Association. She, however, dismissed any data from them, saying data can be twisted and she didn’t believe them any more than I believed the bible. So where the hell was I going with that?)
- What constitutes discrimination
- Premarital sex in general and Celibacy
- abortion
- and the list went on…. and on… and on… with her on the far right wing… and me either out there on the left, or usually in the middle someplace.
What’s really sad, I think…. here we are… having these debates. On every topic… I am basically taking the stance of, “live and let live”, “who are we to judge”, “love is good, regardless of what form it’s in”… trying to be realistic, accepting, open and considerate of other human beings feelings, opinions, and rights. And here she is… one of the nicest people you will ever meet… embracing Christianity and telling me how great it is and how much God loves me and we are all his children. And, yet – she is the one spreading what I think are unaccepting, judemental, and hateful messages.
I don’t get how can she sit there and schmooze and hug this gay kid when she sees him, telling me what a GREAT kid he is… but, still wholeheartedly believe he is doing something terribly wrong, and needs to change in order to get to heaven… or to be a “good Christian”?? It’s so contradictory to me, but she doesn’t even see it. She insists that she is NOT judging. Huh?
Then… what also ticked me off… was she kept making comments about how she was standing up for what she believed in, even if it wasn’t mainstream beliefs. Like she’s some martyr, and better off being old-fashioned and true to herself. This was what I said to her regarding that:
“You keep talking about standing up for what you believe, not what everyone else thinks. Do you seriously think that *I* do not do this? Since when haven’t I held up to my own opinions, in SPITE of what others may WANT to hear or think?? Matter of fact, you of all people should know that I’m usually the one you can COUNT on to tell you what I think/believe, and not just tell you what you want to hear. I don’t see your stand on most things as going against the norm. On the contrary, I see it fitting in nicely with what most good Christians believe, and with what your church is teaching you, and with what I was taught my whole childhood.
I may be agreeing with some big organizations, or common belief’s of society – but, this is based on my own logical conclusions, research, experiences, and gut feelings. You think it’s easy to say I don’t really believe the bible is true? I’m afraid to say that out loud to most people… For fear of them thinking I’m some kind of satanic hellion. Seriously, I do not go around advertising that I am agnostic. It’s even hard to admit that we do not go to church to people. You can see the disapproval in their eyes, especially that we are not taking the kids to church. I know a lot more Christians, than I do non-Christians. So, to argue that you are standing up for what you believe, and make it sound like I am “going with the flow” bothers me, and once again I disagree.”
We wound up, after several wasted weeks of emails, once again, agreeing to disagree and calling a “truce”. We were going nowhere and just wasting time and flirting with really pissing each other off. I will always love this friend like a sister. We have been thru a lot together, and I do believe she is a genuine and true friend. I value her and respect her, in spite of the fact that we can’t see eye to eye on almost anything… But, man, it’s tough sometimes to agree to disagree over such controversial topics! And, if all our debating was suppose to convince me in any way shape or form whatsoever that going to church, and bible studying, and being a Christian is the way to go… it didn’t work for me. At all.
And now… back to my original, totally unrelated comment about being on a mission from God… A kind of mission that I’d much rather be on… curteousy of the Blues Brothers… =):
Another post at “de-conversion” got me thinking. The post is called “My life of proselytization“, this time from HeisSailing…
In his post, he said:
”I witnessed the Gospel of Jesus Christ for most of my adult life”.
Now, I was much younger than he was when I was a full force believer. But, I believe I felt just as strongly. I believed it all. I went around trying to “save” all the kids in my neighborhood… but, my main mission was to save my own father.
HeisSailing made a comment about getting his mom to come to church:
“I would try to convince my mother, once a committed Christian and now a practical atheist, the error of her backsliding ways. I even got her to go to church with me a few times, but not before informing the pastor that I was bringing her and if he would not mind directing a word or two of his message her way.”
This really reminded me of how when I was a young girl, I would be pressured into singing or doing “specials” in front of the church. Then, I would be asked to put the pressure on my father to come to church to see me. After all, I was “Daddy’s little girl”, didn’t he want to see me perform? So, he did come… for at least the first few years of “specials”.
Each time he said “yes honey, I’ll come see you sing” – I would report back to my mother. Then my mother, her friends, the pastor, and my brother and I would rejoice. He’ s coming! Hallelujah! And we’d all pray hard every day until the day of the “special”, that when he came… THIS would be the time the lord would come down and bonk him on the head and turn him into the perfect Christian father and husband. When it didn’t happen… we’d go back to plan A. Try, try again. Repeatedly I was put in this position of trying to save my own father. For years.
Eventually, my father stopped coming to every “special” of mine. He knew the deal… and he didn’t like being approached by the pastor and pressured each time he came either. It was like the whole church was looking at him when he’d come. “Here comes that atheist husband and father!”. They could’ve sold tickets to see the freak atheist! LOL So, I can’t blame him for not wanting to come – even at the time. He probably also sensed the pressure being put on me, and didn’t want to be a part of that either.
I know it was very hard for him to eventually start telling me, “no honey, I won’t come see you sing”. I would then have to report back to my mother that I had failed.. he won’t come… I’m sorry. She would then freak out and get very upset. She made me feel terrible when he didn’t come. She’d make me ask him again and again. And, then they’d argue and she’d try to make him feel guilty for not coming, and make ME feel guilty and like he didn’t care about me in the process.
Eventually, I didn’t WANT to keep singing either. (surprise surprise!). Mostly because I didn’t want to keep pressuring my dad and going thru this.. and because I was starting to have my own doubts about all of it. Not only about my beliefs, but I started wondering if I even had a good voice or not! (loletinf!;) When I finally stood up for myself and said that I didn’t want to do a “special”, I suddenly didn’t feel so special anymore. Not just my mother, but the church leaders also made me feel really bad. Like I was a quitter… giving up… back-sliding… and, they then put pressure and guilt trips on ME asking me over and over when I would sing again. My mother even said something like, “how is your father ever going to be saved now??! ”.
Looking back, I can’t believe how much plotting and scheming it all was. The pressure, fear, and guilt used! Unfortunately, since I was in it, I understand their thinking and putting the pressure on my Dad. They really felt it was their duty and apparently rudeness, politeness, respect, and common courtesy fly out the window when you are trying to save someone’s soul (and do your Christian duty ). This is bad enough.
However, what really gets me (and I don’t want to sound whiney here, but) is how could they do that to me? I was a little girl. A little CHRISTIAN girl who wanted to believe all they were teaching. They played me. They used me. How could they put that kind of pressure, guilt and fear on me?!?
And, when I say “they”, it was NOT just by my mother. It was also her friends, the pastor, the choir director, the church leaders. What kind of people scare the crap out of a little girl telling her that her father, (who she loved wholeheartedly and was a GREAT Dad) was going to burn in hell? Tell her that over and over?? Which is bad enough… but, then tack on the, ”unless YOU can save him” part. ?? And we prayed.. and prayed… And I cried… and cried…
I just don’t get it. I don’t get how adults, in their right minds, could think this was an okay thing to do. ?? The “RIGHT” thing to do?? It makes me mad still when I think about it, and leads me to the only logical conclusion I can think of, and that is that they ALL were not in their right minds!
HeisSailing wrote:
” I then became exhausted from witnessing. I was exhausted and drained from believing that I and my small sect of Christian brethren have the exclusivity on truth and everyone else, no matter what their beliefs, are going to eternal torment. I was sick of believing that I was on the narrow path of righteousness, and my loved ones are on the wide path leading to destruction when in many cases, they are just simply much better people than I am.”
This is a huge part of why I eventually didn’t believe and don’t believe in any one religion, or in religion or God at all really. Not only because I can’t fathom the idea of my own father going to hell (which is a biggie, I admit), but, also ALLLLLL the other people. It can’t be. It makes no sense.
HeisSailing then wrapped up his post by saying:
“Then I became sick of that guilt, I became sick of that arrogance of exclusivity, I became sick of looking at our life as a trial from God to see if we believed the correct doctrines, and I refused to accept it anymore.”
Like him, I also ”became sick” of these same things… The eternal dangling carrot, and the constant fear of hell. I am glad to be rid of them.
PS – If you haven’t already – I suggest you go read HeisSailing’s post in full, as he writes much better than me and makes his points with much better reasoning…
Take care,
~smj
I am being a bad daughter….. again. I have been putting off calling my mother back. I am just so fed up with things that she’s doing. Even though I haven’t talked to her, I received some verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry lengthy emails form her – telling all about her time at “The Call”, and then her latest trip to help with Katrina – which she writes more about praying than anything else.
I want so bad when I do talk to her, to NOT let her bother me. I want to be supportive to her… and give her credit for following her heart. But, it’s so hard when I feel her thrusting all this crap at me. But still… why do I let her get to me? I should be use to it by now. I mean, I know what she’s going to be talking about, and that there’s no sense in trying to tell her how I feel about any of it. I tell myself I won’t let her get to me. She’s sick. I feel sorry for her… but, yet – every time we talk – especially when she’s on a roll with her latest “adventures” – I wind up feeling drained, and annoyed, and aggrivated by the end ot it. And, yes… somehow guilty as well….
You should have heard her go on and on in her email, though. I was curious, and skeptical of some of the things she was saying – so I stupidly went to Youtube to get a peek for myself. I found many many short clips there… mostly of people praying, singing, jumping, speaking in tongues, and shouting. Most of it didn’t surprise me. Some of it brought back not so good memories and I was glad I am not still in that scene.
Still….. most of the people looked happy…. really happy. There was one clip that almost made me wish I still believed… This one:
Don’t they look happy? All 500 million of them (man there’s a lot, isn’t there?) The part where they all were singing “hallelujah” hit me. I remember that song well… and I actually really liked singing… and remember feeling moved many time during that song. It is a pretty song. Just being in a group… where everyone is swaying and raising their hands and really wanting to feel that love is a powerful thing. I think now, looking back, that much of my faith and feelings were just wanting to belong… basking in the community and “good” vibes. Then again, I remember getting almost the same really cool feeling when I went to see “The Who”. I think, longing to be a part of something is a huge part of all that…
There were many more clips regarding “The Call” that made me think I made the right move by getting out… and raised seriosus doubts in my mind about the whole deal, and especially Lou Engle – the “prohetic” leader. Here’s a much longer clip than you’ll want to watch:
Lou Engle was also very involved in that whole “jesus camp” thing – which I personally found very, very disturbing. Sadly, I could relate. My childhood experiences weren’t far off from a lot of what they are showing. (see this post of mine for an example)
Maybe not quite as big of a group… but, same thing on a smaller level. Here’s a clip from that too:
I especially didn’t know wether to laugh or cry at this lady going off about Harry Potter being evil:
My oldest son loves Harry Potter. So do I. I know damn well that if my mother had her say – she would agree with the above clip. She hated halloween and totally had me freaked out about evil spirits when I was a kid. Almost everything was off limits or “evil”. I have vivid memories from teen group leaders telling me how evil rock music was… how just the beat was satanic… making young people want to move in sexual ways. We talked in length about Led Zepplin’s “Stairway to Heaven” song, and don’t even get me started on the KISS albums! LOL (Kids in Satan’s Sanctuary! Look out!). I imagine the kids now days get a real earful over Marilyn Manson LOL
I get a kick out of all the “christian rock” music now. I gues, that beat is okay this way.. as long as they are not dancing for “the flesh” and only for God. My how things keep changing. LOL
Can anyone seriously blame me for putting off talking to my mother. Ok Ok. I’ll call her tommorrow. I promise…
~smj
